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Author Topic: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock  (Read 1050 times)

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September 29, 2017, 09:42:39 PM

bascule

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2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« on: September 29, 2017, 09:42:39 PM »
So she's had her 2.5i X3 for a few days now and has noticed two issues.  Neither are major, but she's mentioned them..

For ref - the car has covered just over 100k, has a full service history, (most recent service only about 3k ago), is a 2.5i with a manual gearbox, I believe the engine is the M54 as it's a 2004 car.

1 - Small knock under braking.  I only drove the car briefly and didn't notice this, but she says occasionally when braking at low speed there's a knock noise - having dug into this it sounds like it's a single one-off knock just as the attitude of the car changes.  I am assuming it could be a bush - though the new MOT last week gave no advises.  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

2 - mild hesitation on acceleration in lower gears.  The idle is fine and smooth, and there's no lack of power, and the car will rev freely up the range.  This hesitation seems to be at lower revs (say around 2k) when accelerating, and is just a mild almost stutter at that point.  It's not bad, but seems to be consistently there.  It's not particularly noticeable in higher gears.  She's done a hundred or so miles in one mostly motorway journey with no issues - this seems to be only noticeable at lowish speed, low gears, round town.  She's not an aggressive driver at all, in fact quite the opposite.  There's no warning lights on or anything like that. 

I started googling - I'd never heard of VANOS before which someone suggested, and that doesnt sound fun - but it also sounds like vanos issues would have a more pronounced effect on the idle and power in general?   Also, Maf sensor seems unlikely given how silky smooth the car is in general, it's only this mild hesitation at that point of the revs.  Another source said vacuum leaks etc - at this point I thought I'd ask all you guys if you've had anything similar!!

all advice appreciated!

Thanks

Ben

September 29, 2017, 10:22:16 PM
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kkx5

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 10:22:16 PM »
Tyres....Tyres....Tyres....

September 30, 2017, 08:48:33 AM
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X5Sport

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2017, 08:48:33 AM »
Check you tyre type and tread variation front rear.  These cars don’t like either wide tread differences or non ‘*’ marked tyres.  Kkx5 knows all about fixing these things when use of wrong tyres break the transmission components.

E83’s are known to have issues, especially on staggered wheel set ups, if the wrong choice is made and changing to a brand new set all round of the right tyre type frequently fixes this.
:type: Never anthropomorphise computers. They hate that.

September 30, 2017, 10:40:57 AM
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bascule

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2017, 10:40:57 AM »

Thanks for the replies chaps, but can you help me understand?

I’ll visit her this weekend and check the tyres for sure, but i’m not clear on how tyre choices would cause an engine hesitation or that knock..

Have I missed something? 

September 30, 2017, 12:02:36 PM
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bascule

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2017, 12:02:36 PM »
Ok , have arrived and checked the tyres:

All four are Pirelli Scorpion Verde tyres in 235/50/18 - not staggered. I looked them up and they are apparently specifically for 4x4 vehicles I believe

They were obviously changed as a set, tread depths are identical on all four and are in the region of 6-7mm all round.

I’ll go get the pressures checked just to be certain

Can you help me understand why tyres may cause any of the issues raised?  These tyres are all so good, I don’t really want to be changing them without being certain!


September 30, 2017, 02:00:03 PM
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X5Sport

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2017, 02:00:03 PM »
Less likely to be tyres then.

What happens is that the rolling circumference must be with 1.5% between axles or you get transmission wind up and this feeds back through the transmission to the engine and affects performance.

As you have a square set up (all 4 the same) then it’s less likely, and more so given you have a set changed at the same time.  Pirelli are also one of the OEM choices.

It could be a bad injector, bad coil pack (a known weakness), MAF, oxygen sensor, fuel filter and the list goes on.  Probably worth getting a code read done just to see if anything is stored (current or historic) that will point you in the right direction.  Not everything brings a warn8ng light on unfortunately.
:type: Never anthropomorphise computers. They hate that.

September 30, 2017, 02:04:23 PM
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kkx5

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2017, 02:04:23 PM »
Higher profile on front will give hesitation, a bit like missfire + knocking when you brake at low speed, but ok, do a test, pull fuse no26 from fuse panel and test drive it. I got a feeling it should be 255/45/18 at the back.
 
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e83-x3-2.5i-sav/wiring-functional-info/power-train/transmission-control-unit-vtg/1VnYqqGduF

September 30, 2017, 02:07:04 PM
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kkx5

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2017, 02:07:04 PM »
Less likely to be tyres then.

What happens is that the rolling circumference must be with 1.5% between axles or you get transmission wind up and this feeds back through the transmission to the engine and affects performance.

As you have a square set up (all 4 the same) then it’s less likely, and more so given you have a set changed at the same time.  Pirelli are also one of the OEM choices.

It could be a bad injector, bad coil pack (a known weakness), MAF, oxygen sensor, fuel filter and the list goes on.  Probably worth getting a code read done just to see if anything is stored (current or historic) that will point you in the right direction.  Not everything brings a warn8ng light on unfortunately.
Never seen square set up on 18" wheels. I think someone put 235 on wider back wheels so diameter is miles out.

September 30, 2017, 05:19:59 PM
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X5Sport

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2017, 05:19:59 PM »
According to alloywheels Direct, 18” should indeed be staggered and the correct set up should be as kkx5 states...

front: 235/50R18 101Y
rear: 255/45R18 103Y XL
:type: Never anthropomorphise computers. They hate that.

October 03, 2017, 10:45:10 PM
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bascule

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 10:45:10 PM »
Small update, think we may have some progress.

Drove it for about 150 miles at the weekend, with her as passenger, and then she drove it for a chunk more, just getting more of a feel for this issue.

The alleged 'knock' - doesn't seem to exist.  Couldn't replicate it at all, neither could she, it's all very smooth.

The hesitation however - yes that's definitely there.  It's very very mild, but there.  It's intermittent, and is like the tiniest brief hiccup of a misfire, and at around 2000rpm only - maybe a little either side, but that's all. 

I am ruling out the tyres now..  because the stutter can still happen when stationary, just when giving the engine a rev..  not always, but when it happens its just the same as when moving.  Incidentally, there was actually a tyres issue - not one of them was over 23psi! Resolved immediately, and an instant and dramatic improvement in the ride and steering, which she was pleased about.  No difference to the odd hesitation though.

So, having driven it that much and read up a LOT - this seems to be something which is a very common issue with that engine when fitted in the 3 and 5 series cars!  It's going in tomorrow to have the codes read just in case, but the strongest contender at the moment is the CCV and breather pipes.  The idle from cold is absolutely perfect and there's no loss of power, and it's not lumpy -  so we're not suspecting Vanos seals or MAF.  The engine revs beautifully round to the redline and pulls very strongly, so we're not suspecting coilpacks.  Spark plugs seems to be something people with this issue try - but doesnt fix it - so I'm not leaping into that.  However, theres seems to be a LOT of coverage on the CCV and associated pipes causing exactly this kind of glitch..  though its not likely to throw a code up of course - so that's in the lead as a likely at the moment.  I've looked at some of the complete kits on eBay at around £50-£60 - has anyone here used one of these?

Watch this space as they say, it'll be interesting to see if any codes come up tomorrow!  I've ordered a reader myself now, but it wont be here til the weekend.


November 12, 2017, 06:54:21 PM
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bascule

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Re: 2.5i e83 X3 - mild hesitation query, and slight knock
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 06:54:21 PM »
ok, a further update.  The slight misfire - vacuum tests show this quite clearly as a PCV valve issue - though no codes showed up at all.

But the knock...
Well, there is now intermittently, definitely a proper solid 'clock' from the transmission when slowing down for junctions.  Googling this shows it very consistent with what people have said about non star-rated tyres or mixed tyres and the effect on the transfer box.

kkkx5 - I've taken on board what you said about how it should be staggered, as if true then that's an obvious solution.

But, having been looking for star rated tyres, only SOME tyre places only give staggered choices, some are quite happy with the four square ones.

So..  I've been through realoem and the other decoders to try to work out what rims exactly are on the car, and that's quite interesting.  For that Vin, BmwVin clearly shows the wheels as

'S2CBA BMW LA wheel, star spoke 113'  - Yep that matches with what I can see.

Looking up the same VIN on realoem, for that wheel, they were fitted in sets of four identical 8jx18 rims.  (Some of the other wheel choices on realoem are equally clear that they were fitted in staggered sets of two different sizes) - If correct, this means I am already running the right sizes all round.

So..  I'm less convinced that this particular car should be staggered.  (Obviously I don't want to fit two larger tyres on the back if its not actually larger rims, that'll only make it worse!)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=PA72-EUR-07-2004-E83-BMW-X3_25i&diagId=36_0712

I'm going to go visit her and see if I can see the stamps on the inside of the rims to be absolutely sure.

So.  It's a bit of a shame to replace four good matching quality tyres with 6.7mm tread all round, without being absolutely certain.  I had been hoping kkkx5 was correct, and I might get away with just replacing the rears!

What I'd appreciate is recommendations though, for which models of star rated tyre are worth putting the money into..

All advice appreciated.